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Shouldn't the starter spin connected to battery

 
Gregski
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Posted: 03/18/10 06:38 PM

OK, I don't have a starter solenoid, the starter is on the engine and I hook up the negative from a good battery to the engine block as my ground, and I tap the positive battery cable aligator clamp on the positive bolt on the starter and it won't spin, why?

I thought it should spin and it just won't engage the fly wheel because there is no starter solenoid to make it move the gear forward.  

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cushman350
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Posted: 03/18/10 06:46 PM

Your Mustang starter has one electrical connection, 12v from the solenoid. It's not like GM starters. Should spin if properly grounded.  

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Gregski
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Posted: 03/18/10 08:04 PM

thanks, but I don't have the solenoid so I am connecting the positive cable directly to the bolt on the side of the starter, should that spin it, or must I have the solenoid hooked up?

The starter is bolted on to the engine so it should be grounded since I connect the negative cable to a bolt on the engine block  

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shiftthis
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Posted: 03/18/10 08:51 PM

yes it should spin  

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jlg2002
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Posted: 03/19/10 12:10 PM

Only one source of voltage to that starter, it should engage and spin if connected directly to the battery and the ground is good. jlg  

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Gregski
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Posted: 03/20/10 07:08 AM

thank your for reading, your advice, and help

in case something was binding, i decided to take the starter off the engine, then I had the bright idea of using a battery charger set to "Engine Start" to try and get it to spin, that did not work

since i couldn't spin the gear by hand both ways, I decided to take the starter apart inspect the brushes and clean it up a bit with electronic parts cleaner, battery cleaner for the corosion, and trusty WD40, after I cleaned it I could now spin it by hand

I tried the battery charger trick again and it still did not work, so I started my truck and hooked up jumper cables to it and hooked up the negative to the core, and tapped the positive on the side bolt, this made a few small sparks and still did not spin the starter

remember I am doing this to learn first, to do it right the first time is option two, plus I don't have much money to spend on this

tomorrow morning I will take it in to AutoZone and have them bench test it for me, I may pick up a brush kit for $15 bucks to learn how to rebuild a starter, I know what used brushes look like now, so if the new ones look in much better condition I will buy them

I'm learning and I'm having fun, got any ideas for me?

93658D1269061127 Shouldnt Starter Spin Connected Battery Starter 1

93659D1269061127 Shouldnt Starter Spin Connected Battery Starter 2

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/attachments/mustang-ii-tech/93660d1269061127-shouldnt-starter-spin-connected-battery-starter-3.jpg  

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jlg2002
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Posted: 03/22/10 11:49 AM

Keep on doing what you're doing, experience is a good teacher.  You may want to perform a continuity test on the field coil to make sure it's good also (not open). You said you don't have a lot of money but now is also the time to replace the Bendix and make sure the commutator bushings are good. jlg  

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Gregski
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Posted: 03/22/10 04:45 PM

right couldn't agree more... um what's a Bendix? LOL  

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braz
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Posted: 03/23/10 04:01 AM

What year is your car? I'm curious why it doesn't have a starter solenoid. I know where your coming from on the "lack of money" issue, but that starter looks dead in the water, and replacements are not very expensive. My 66 Coupe came alive with a fresh starter.  

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scodiseth
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Posted: 03/23/10 09:55 AM

it may also be worth checking with a local junk yard.  I bought one locally for $15.  It was not exactly the same year, but Ford made this nearly identical starter for many years on many models, and it works just fine.  I will get the correct one eventually when money is not so tight.  I believe the Bendix is what pushes that gear you can see forward to engage it with the flywheel.  Where the shaft ends in the top of the housing is a bushing that quite commonly goes bad and is worth replacing also.  I understand the learning point, but in the long run you may save time and money just getting a used one to get your project going.

Scott  

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jlg2002
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Posted: 03/23/10 02:46 PM

Icon QuoteGregski:
OK, I don't have a starter solenoid, the starter is on the engine and I hook up the negative from a good battery to the engine block as my ground, and I tap the positive battery cable aligator clamp on the positive bolt on the starter and it won't spin, why?

I thought it should spin and it just won't engage the fly wheel because there is no starter solenoid to make it move the gear forward.


Scott you're correct, the Bendix is the gear drive unit that spins out when the starter energizes. Its essentially an overriding clutch concept that I believe was developed by the Bendix corporation back in the annals of time.

Brazil- this type of starter does not have a built-in solenoid like the GM ones do, hence the no solenoid comment.  

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Gregski
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Posted: 03/23/10 05:37 PM

I don't have a starter solenoid because I don't have a car, lol, all I bought was the engine and the transmission to learn how to tinker with it.  I know it requires a separate starter solenoid, but being curious I wanted to see what happens when you hook up a car battery to an old starter, the answer is nothing, so now I will go out an buy a new starter and hook up a battery to it and see what happens, I bet the gear will shoot out and spin, I don't think you need a solenoid to do that, I think a direct high current connection to the starter will spin it and start the car, not the ideal way to do it, but just as an experiment

It is my understanding that a solenoid is just an electronic switch that you active using a thin wire so that it makes a connection for you using a thick wire, that's as simple as I can explain it, that way you don't have thick wires running up to your dash board and up your steering column to the ignition switch

correct me if I'm wrong  

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gbowden
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Posted: 03/23/10 07:43 PM

What you are describing is a relay. An old Mustang has one of those near the battery and it is used to send high current electricity to the starter motor. The activation side of the relay is controlled by the start position on the ignition switch. A solenoid is a electromechanical device that uses current to do mechanical work. When you apply current to a starter solenoid, you cause the linkage in the solenoid to drive the starter motor gear into the flywheel gear. A solenoid and relay are similiar in that they are both contain electromagnets.  

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braz
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Posted: 03/24/10 06:36 AM

jlg and gbowden.
Thanks for the lightbulb above my head right now. I thought the relay "was" the solenoid. The guy at the auto parts evidently didn't know either when I said "I need to replace this solenoid for a 66 Mustang." He just went in back and came out with it. That also explains why the dude at John's Mustang in Houston looked at me funny when I told him I replaced the solenoid. Blush  

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Gregski
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Posted: 03/24/10 04:10 PM

thank you for the explanation, I couldn't agree more, and looking at the Mustang II wiring diagram it confirms what you say, it is called a Starter Motor Relay, ok, so get this Autozone calls it the "Solenoid Switch" you gotta love it.

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/catalog/parts/partsProduct.jsp?itemIdentifier=118604_0_0_&skuDescription=Duralast+/+Solenoid+Switch&brandName=Duralast&displayName=Solenoid+Switch&categoryNValue=16499999&sortType=low&store=4007&isSearchByPartNumber=false&fromWhere=null&fromString=search&counter=0&itemId=102-0&navValue=16400102&filterByKeyWord=solenoid&productId=118604&searchText=&categoryDisplayName=null&parentId=64-0  

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