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Rebuilt 302 issues

 
Shawns66Mustang
New User
Posts: 28
Joined: 01/08
Posted: 10/30/12 08:35 PM

So I have kind of an ongoing work in progress (problem?) I rebuilt a 302 with a comp cam, Edelbrock aluminum head, an RPM manifold, MSD system and a 500 CFM Edelbrock card.  When I ideal it down to 1000 RPM the motor seems to shack and a little rough like it wants to die. At higher RPM like 1500 it’s very smooth, this seems odd to me?  I just got done pulling the intake back off and re-installing it with a non hardening sealer on both the manifold and card gasket so I’m fairly sure I don’t have a vacuum leak.  
Second question for those who are good with timing issues.  I put it at 3,500 RPM and set the timing at 35 ATDC, then back down to 1,000 RPM with had the timing at about  18 ATDC. Does this seem right??  

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waynep71222
Enthusiast
Posts: 455
Joined: 04/12
Posted: 10/30/12 09:57 PM

#1.  exactly what type of distributer..

MSD makes about 10 or 12 different small block ford distributers...

there are several other brands.. even a bunch of different stock distributers that could be in there..   points type...    duraspark....   TFI....   DIS with TWO 4 terminal ignition coils..

#2...   can you VERIFY TDC on the damper is the same as TDC on the first piston ..  there are some aftermarket dampers and some factory dampers with timing marks for different locations.. one pair of marks is about 30 degrees apart..

#3...  is your timing light equipped with an adjustment knob.. that allows you to flash the bulb earlier to see where the timing marks line up easier..  is it set at ZERO???


#4... back to the idle mixture on the edelbrock 500.. do the idle mixture screws stall the motor when you turn them in???  verifying that they both work.  INDIVIDUALLY  . and lean best idle are equal turns out..
there are hidden idle air bleeds and idle feed restrictors that can have debris in them as there is always air being pulled in through the air bleeds.. if the air bleeds get clogged..  or the idle feed restrictions get clogged.. you WILL HAVE IDLE ISSUES..   do you set your idle mixture with a vacuum gauge ???

answer questions 1, 2, 3, 4...   should take most people less than 30 minutes unless its freezing cold out side.. or your car is buried up to the mirrors in new jersey beach sand..


checking #2 is easier with 2 people...   one to work the crank back and forth with a tight fitting breaker bar..  use a grocery bag over the hex and the square if the socket fits loose...  

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waynep71222
Enthusiast
Posts: 455
Joined: 04/12
Posted: 10/30/12 10:46 PM

more on #2...

take a look at this balancer..  you can easily see 2 sets of timing marks..  but if you look carefully just going over the top.. is a third set... closer to the back face..

PP 80007


i had the timing issue with a friend.. drove him mad.. until i pointed out he was using the WRONG set of marks on the damper...  

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jlg2002
Guru
Posts: 1410
Joined: 03/08
Posted: 10/31/12 03:33 PM

Icon QuoteShawns66Mustang:
So I have kind of an ongoing work in progress (problem?) I rebuilt a 302 with a comp cam, Edelbrock aluminum head, an RPM manifold, MSD system and a 500 CFM Edelbrock card.  When I ideal it down to 1000 RPM the motor seems to shack and a little rough like it wants to die. At higher RPM like 1500 it’s very smooth, this seems odd to me?  I just got done pulling the intake back off and re-installing it with a non hardening sealer on both the manifold and card gasket so I’m fairly sure I don’t have a vacuum leak.  
Second question for those who are good with timing issues.  I put it at 3,500 RPM and set the timing at 35 ATDC, then back down to 1,000 RPM with had the timing at about  18 ATDC. Does this seem right??


#1. You need a vacuum gauge and tach to accurately set the idle speed. You say you have a comp cam - which  one? and what are the idle quality characteristics from Comp for this cam? assuming it's hydraulic how did you set the valve lash? is it too tight?
sorry for all the questions but they're all necessary

#2 i think you mean 35 BTDC. IMO, You shouldn't be retarding spark to ATDC for any reason. 18 deg's is probably too much at idle for todays gas octanes but you don't say if it's with the vac advance hooked up or not.  

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54packman
Enthusiast
Posts: 342
Joined: 11/09
Posted: 10/31/12 05:51 PM

another thing is How much cam did you put in? some are lumpy at low rpm, or is it close to a stock cam?  

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Shawns66Mustang
New User
Posts: 28
Joined: 01/08
Posted: 10/31/12 06:47 PM

A lot of questions I’ll try to answer.
Wenep71222
#1  I’m using the pro billet 6A MSD distributer w/electronic points.
#2  I’ve verified TDC with a piston stop so I know that I’m within a degree or two of TDC.
#3  I have an older Craftsman timing light with no adjustments, just pull the trigger.
#4 I’ve clean the ideal screw ports with carb cleaner and compressed air.  They appear to be working. When I tighten the screw the RPM goes down, at that point I backed it off two full turns on both screws.
I only have one set of numbers on the distributer.
Jlg2002
I have not attempted to set the ideal with a vacuum gage.
My Comp Cam card says- Duration on intake is 218 Exhaust id 224, Lobe lift on intake is .3090 and exhaust is .3130, and lobe separation is 110.  I have no idea what all that means.
I have the vacuum advance plugged right now.
Maybe everything is fine?? The issue is the 298 I just pulled out didn’t shack/rough at low ideal like the 302 does now.  

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waynep71222
Enthusiast
Posts: 455
Joined: 04/12
Posted: 10/31/12 09:16 PM

invest in a vacuum gauge..

this is a harbor freight unit.. around 15 bucks.. it should last a lifetime..
Fuel Pump And Vacuum Tester  Item #93547
Fuelpumpvacuumtester

this will allow to to Tee into the vacuum hose to the vacuum advance if equipped..


you will also find one of these handy...

Xenon Timing Light With Advance ITEM #:40963 25 to 30 bucks also at HF..
Image 21062

yes.. HF timing lights are cheep... but i usually get 8 to 10 years of abuse out of them before they die.. i am on my second...   they just get tossed in a box when they quit..

i am taking that you have an 8479 pro billet.. vacuum advance distributer.. there is a label with a part number on the distributer..

do you have the installation booklet with it.. check out pages 2 through 5.. of 8 pages..

http://www.jegs.com/InstallationInstructions/100/121/121-8479.pdf  

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jlg2002
Guru
Posts: 1410
Joined: 03/08
Posted: 11/13/12 02:03 PM

Icon QuoteShawns66Mustang:
A lot of questions I’ll try to answer.
Wenep71222
#1  I’m using the pro billet 6A MSD distributer w/electronic points.
#2  I’ve verified TDC with a piston stop so I know that I’m within a degree or two of TDC.
#3  I have an older Craftsman timing light with no adjustments, just pull the trigger.
#4 I’ve clean the ideal screw ports with carb cleaner and compressed air.  They appear to be working. When I tighten the screw the RPM goes down, at that point I backed it off two full turns on both screws.
I only have one set of numbers on the distributer.
Jlg2002
I have not attempted to set the ideal with a vacuum gage.
My Comp Cam card says- Duration on intake is 218 Exhaust id 224, Lobe lift on intake is .3090 and exhaust is .3130, and lobe separation is 110.  I have no idea what all that means.
I have the vacuum advance plugged right now.
Maybe everything is fine?? The issue is the 298 I just pulled out didn’t shack/rough at low ideal like the 302 does now.


You have the Comp X262H cam and it will have a slightly rough idle.  

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Shawns66Mustang
New User
Posts: 28
Joined: 01/08
Posted: 11/28/12 03:27 PM

Follow up end to my rough idle issue.  It’s taken me a while but good news I finally found the problem, bad new I lost a lobe on my new Comp Cam. Must have been during break-in?? The intake lobe on #6 is nearly all gone and it also did a number on the lifter. I'm thinking of changing it out to either a Crane or Edelbrock.  

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waynep71222
Enthusiast
Posts: 455
Joined: 04/12
Posted: 11/28/12 05:27 PM

its the OIL..

it requires additional ZDDP... there are additive bottles to add to the oil for breaking in cams..

there are several articles i will add them here later tonight...

any brand of cam will fail without the additional additives...

please... pick up some supermagnets and place them in the oil pan while you have the timing cover off...   so it attracts all the metal fragments...

you will also want to pour some oil into the pan... before you remove the cam and lifters...

spin the pump with a drill... with the filter off to flush the PUMP and pickup...
this will remove i hope any sediment from the inside of the oil pump...


Bottles Image

Engine Break-In Oil Additive (1 Bottle)
Product Representation: Actual part may vary based on configuration ordered.
Part: 159

Due to government regulations, in recent years oil manufacturers have removed the zinc and many of the other additives from their motor oil. However, using an “off-the-shelf” brand of oil during the critical break-in process can lead to a failure. Thus, COMP Cams® Engine Break-In Oil Additive is designed to extend the durability of internal engine components including camshafts, valve train components and all moving parts in your new or rebuilt engine. It does so by using a special blend of extreme pressure additives no longer available in “off-the-shelf” motor oils. COMP Cams® Engine Break-In Oil provides added protection during the break-in process and is compatible with any petroleum, synthetic or blended motor oil.

Extend the durability of internal engine components including camshafts, valve train components and all moving parts
Special blend of extreme pressure additives no longer available in off the shelf motor oils
Provides added protection during critical engine break-in process
Compatible with any petroleum, synthetic or blended motor oil
Ground Shipping Only – Federal Regulations Prevent Air Shipment Of This Product


here is an article that you should read...

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/viewall.html

there might be an article here in MM.. but i ran across the HR article first..  

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Shawns66Mustang
New User
Posts: 28
Joined: 01/08
Posted: 11/28/12 07:35 PM

I did use the Comp Cam addative but one thought is I had installed a deep oil pan so instead of adding one bottle of addative to five quarts I used one bottle to eight plus quarts. Maybe i deluted it to much? Should I add two bottles next time?
Thanks for info on cleaning out the pan and pump didn't think of that.  

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cushman350
Enthusiast
Posts: 635
Joined: 07/06
Posted: 11/30/12 07:28 AM

I'm using the Crane CRN-130062 Lift .512/.512 in my 347 stroker and I am quite pleased. Lopey idle but not bad. Power range is matched to the trickflow heads and Edelbrock RPM intake. Peppy Smile 375-400hp est. in a 2900lb '66 GT350 is unmanageable in 1st and 2nd. Overkill, lesson learned but fun as hell.

Keep the same useage ratio. Two bottles to 8+ quarts. So, too much cam lube is better than not enough. Follow the recommended break in procedure.  

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