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'65 timing

 
elgordito55
New User
Posts: 32
Joined: 09/12
Posted: 11/16/12 01:31 PM

What is the definitive timing for a '65 Mustang 6 cyl with auto trans? several manuals list as 8 btdc others at 12 btdc...also, should the engine start right away at any of those two settings? thanks  

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54packman
Enthusiast
Posts: 342
Joined: 11/09
Posted: 11/16/12 04:32 PM

The Ford shop manual says 12 deg btdc but may be adjusted 5 deg more to obtain optimum engine performance/ fuel economy,  close to that it should start, i have just dropped in a distributers in the past, and set the harmonic ballancer at 10deg btdc, drop in the distributer, then rotate the distributer so the points just open, clamp it down, and it will run right off, u still have to use a timing light after, but u have to have the vacuum line disconected and plugged, and keep the motor below 550 rpm or the mechanical advance will start to kickin, you may have to turn down the idle screw adjustmet to get this.  

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bucala
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Posts: 36
Joined: 03/10
Posted: 11/17/12 04:02 PM

You will have to do a little trial and error.  Remember this engine was built during the time of regular gas.  Unless you're running turbo blue, or a whole lot of octane booster, you need to adjust both carb and timing for unleaded.


Older cars are almost BETTER tuned with a vacuum gauge, which shows the optimal timing, idle adjustment, etc...


If you haven't already, spring for a Pertronix Ignitor setup, with a flamethrower coil.  Get your car set up properly once!

Good Luck.  

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elgordito55
New User
Posts: 32
Joined: 09/12
Posted: 11/18/12 12:01 AM

Thanks for the responses and bucala you brought up something that is at the heart of my problem: "adjusting carb and timing" I don't know why I am having a heck of a difficult time tuning up the engine. Just when I thought I had the timing correct the engine won;t start and I have to re-adjust the carb and just when I have the carb to specs it won't start again then I start suspecting the timing or points.
My basic problem is: the engine won't start unless you prime it with gas. As long the engine is hot it'll start. As soon as it cools, it won;t start--I don't know whether to retard or advance the timing, reset the point gap, etc. wondering if anybody has had this type of problem. This is a 6 cyl with auto---  

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bucala
New User
Posts: 36
Joined: 03/10
Posted: 11/18/12 06:47 PM

My '66 Mustang has a 289, but my 67 and 69 Falcons were straight 6, auto.

Here's what you need to do, I had similar fuel issues.

First, check or replace your fuel filter, including the one on the carb.  You need to replace your PCV valve.  I had issues with that, and you wouldn't believe what vacuum issues were caused by it.  My Dad's car had similar starting issues, he had a broken PCV valve stuck in a hose.  Looked fine, worked awful.

Check your gas cap, and any fuel tank venting.  Mine liked to build up suction, and it would draw the fuel back to the tank!  Crack the cap open a bit, see if you get a sucking sound.  If so, your car sucks (gas) sorry, had to go there.

Try pumping your pedal about 12 to 20 times before turning the key.  If it fires, we're on track here.  Also, check your choke.  Do you have a manual choke, or a climactic choke, or an electric choke?  Tighten your carb to intake bolts.  It's 47 years old, it may be loose.  You might also have to replace the base gasket.  If you have the Motorcraft 1100 carb, also tighten the top screws, they can come loose too.

Last.  Might sound stupid, but also check the rubber line going from vacuum to the auto trans modulator.  By the way, that 12 dollar modulator can cause a lot of issues!  My cars shifted funny, and the modulators had pinhole leaks, ATF was getting into the vacuum system rotting things out.  It also causes the hoses to collapse.

I'm speaking from practical frustrated experience here!  I've had a few 170's and 200's that didn't like to run especially in Michigan winters.

Also, I found that a can or two of "lead substitute" from your favorite auto parts store helped me too.  

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54packman
Enthusiast
Posts: 342
Joined: 11/09
Posted: 11/18/12 07:01 PM

when you try to start it cold, press the gas pedal to the floor once, then look down the throat of the carb, and see if the choke plate closes, for an engine to run, you need 3 things, compression, spark, and fuel, you have already have the spark,and compression, so all that left is fuel since it runs ok once started and warm  

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bucala
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Posts: 36
Joined: 03/10
Posted: 11/18/12 07:15 PM

I'd place my bets on your PCV.  A few bucks for new fuel lines probably wont hurt either.  Especially if they are original.  

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elgordito55
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Posts: 32
Joined: 09/12
Posted: 11/18/12 07:55 PM

thanks 54packman and bucala for your suggestions--I just need to go down the line and start solving this by process of elimination!  

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cushman350
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Posts: 635
Joined: 07/06
Posted: 11/18/12 09:34 PM

All vacuum issues MUST be resolved to get your carb to idle and the butterfly to be oriented correctly in relation to the idle mixture circuit. Timing issues will cause the idle screw to be screwed in to raise the idle for the engine to run, removing the butterfly completely above the idle circuits, canceling them out. You must do the detective work.  

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bucala
New User
Posts: 36
Joined: 03/10
Posted: 11/19/12 05:14 PM

There is always the old spray can trick to find vacuum leaks.  Get the car running, spray carb cleaner at the carb base, and  on the vacuum lines.  If you hear the idle suddenly rise, you've found your leak.  

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bucala
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Posts: 36
Joined: 03/10
Posted: 11/19/12 05:14 PM

There is always the old spray can trick to find vacuum leaks.  Get the car running, spray carb cleaner at the carb base, and  on the vacuum lines.  If you hear the idle suddenly rise, (or change) you've found your leak.  

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elgordito55
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Posts: 32
Joined: 09/12
Posted: 11/19/12 08:00 PM

Thanks for the responses, I've heard of the spray can method to locate vacuum leaks on the carb and I'll give that out a try too.
Bucala do you have more information on the Pertronix ignition system, like website, vendor, cost, installation?
Thanks
Jesus  

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bucala
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Posts: 36
Joined: 03/10
Posted: 11/20/12 03:54 AM

Jesus,

you can buy the Pertronix ignitor online, or from NPD, and many other sources.  Just look it up on Google.  Summit Racing has it for $74.95.  You pull out your old points and throw them away.  You bolt the plate inside your distributor, drop the collar on, set timing.  You now have electronic ignition.  It doesn't get much easier than that.  Made a huge difference in my starting, power, and gas mileage.  But, I also recommend the Flame Thrower coil with that ignitor, produces a much better spark.

Bob.  

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Bill T.
Enthusiast
Posts: 283
Joined: 04/08
Posted: 11/20/12 09:15 AM

Check your carb's accelerator pump.  If you have to prime it to start it when cold, perhaps it isn't squirting fuel when you depress the gas pedal.  
Bill

1966 coupe
1995 Cobra R

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elgordito55
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Posts: 32
Joined: 09/12
Posted: 11/20/12 06:02 PM

thanks again to all of you for your suggestions/help---

Jesus  

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