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Clutch bar hits headers, look! Advice?

 
idrivejunk
New User
Posts: 38
Joined: 11/10
Posted: 06/08/13 08:02 AM

I am working on a customer's 70 Mach1 It has a 351 with Edelbrock heads and a T5 transmission. Replaced headers with prettier ones (don't know the brand) and replaced the clutch Z-bar with a new one due to wear on the old.

The hood is off, so is the hinge. Also in this photo the master cylinder, upper brake hoses, and steering coupler have been removed. The Z-bar drops in from the topside.

But it hits the header. Swings less than an inch as-is, and theres not even a header gasket in there yet. Also very close to the steering box but I'm OK with that. I have to get past this end of the conflict before I can identify and address any conflicts on the lower end of the bar.

I don't work on Mustangs a lot. Am I missing something common here? My next move is to do surgery on the new Z-bar, but I haven't cut anything yet. I did bend the bar away from the header some already, enough to move the rod hole about a half inch. Not enough, it still only swings back and forth about an inch. Clears the steering box fine, but I'm getting close to the apron. Wanted to ask you guys if this is a common issue and if so what the common solution is. I already have a plan to modify the new bar.

This view is with your eyes about where the master cylinder resides.  

Confused  Any ideas? I don't think I can slide the engine over.

IMG 3260 Zps862d2e5b  
idrivejunk

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54packman
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Posts: 343
Joined: 11/09
Posted: 06/08/13 08:14 AM

i would cut off the upper arm where it meets the cross shaft, then weld a coat hanger to that point where the arm was, then try and shape the coat hanger to clear everything, then bend up a new bar in that shape, and re weld it to the cross shaft.  

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waynep712222
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Posts: 223
Joined: 04/13
Posted: 06/08/13 09:44 AM

since its a T5 transmission.. it really looks like the tail of the transmission is lower than the C4 and the angle of the cross bar is down because of the drooping transmission..

i am saying this because off the right edge of the photo.. the push rod from the pedal is at an angle i would not like...

is there any chance it would clear if you jacked up the transmission mount.. slipped some fender shims in for a trial fit..  that might clear and restore the geometry to the push rod...

i wonder if the interior is in already..  there is also a chance depending on hood clearance. of raising the engine slightly with shim blocks on top of the motor mount where the bolts go thru.

i my memory.. i recall the cross bar is almost level...

is that a NEW cross bar???  perhaps if the transmission could not be raised... the lever on the z bar where the pedal push rod can be bent slightly outward..  by heating it slightly close to the crossbar....

will the clutch pedal pushrod when disconnected.. move back toward the inner fender an inch? without being too far off center in its hole.  measure how far the push rod will move back.. that will give you and idea of how far the upper arm could be bent.. less the amount you need to move it farther back to slip it around the bar to slip it in.. .

raising the transmission and perhaps a shim block on top of the motor mounts would also give you more clearance on between the headers and the steering box..

i know how much you guys put into that car.. but it that steering box was not already painted silver i would be putting some angle on the top cover to clear the headers..

one last thing.. yea right.. does it have 7/16 bolts thru the motor mounts.. i have found cars with 3/8 bolts thru them..  one was that 429 torino.. i think it let the motor down farther. so i replace them with the proper size..

just ideas...  

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idrivejunk
New User
Posts: 38
Joined: 11/10
Posted: 06/08/13 09:59 AM

Icon Quote54packman:
i would cut off the upper arm where it meets the cross shaft, then weld a coat hanger to that point where the arm was, then try and shape the coat hanger to clear everything, then bend up a new bar in that shape, and re weld it to the cross shaft.

That was my first thought, too. Just to cut the arm off and relocate it farther out on the tube. Of course that would mean another cut at the pushrod hole end, to correct the side to side position of the hole.

I laid the bar down on a sheet of paper and roughly traced it. Put it in a vise at the base of the top arm and bent the arm, referencing the tracing to check my progress. The bar almost needs a twist in it.  
idrivejunk

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idrivejunk
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Posts: 38
Joined: 11/10
Posted: 06/08/13 10:17 AM

Wayne, she came with a toploader, not a C4. But your idea is valid, the dimensions may vary. I would like to play with shimming the trans mount now that you mention it. However the shifter mounting pad rides very close to the floor crossmember so I'm not sure it it would let me raise it any. Fan position in the shroud is low if anything, so that points the other way.

Thats the old sloppy pushrod in the pic, but yes that is one of my concerns - keeping that bar vertical at the top to avoid undue wear. A new pushrod is going in, I just used that one to link to the pedal and see where it rides.

Nothing but Hushmat on the floors yet. Actually the air cleaner stud was almost poking thru the hood when this came in, so there is definitely a space constraint in moving the engine up.

That IS a new cross bar. I already bent it cold, a little.

The clutch pushrod clears the apron by maybe half an inch when its all the way forward, thats about as close as I want to push it.

I could totally grind some clearance on the top edge of the steering box and touch up the paint but the owner might freak out, so I'll avoid that until I see it run and jump in case its not an issue.

Actually, now that you mention it the thing may have had undersize thru-bolts. I did put big uns back though.

I certainly appreciate the ideas, you are an idea factory. I'll sketch my surgery plan and post that shortly.  
idrivejunk

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idrivejunk
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Posts: 38
Joined: 11/10
Posted: 06/08/13 10:53 AM

ZBAR1 Zps01b96e42

ZBAR2 Zps587ed453  
idrivejunk

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54packman
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Posts: 343
Joined: 11/09
Posted: 06/08/13 11:19 AM

I was thinking of bringing the arm up in between the steering shaft, and the fender apron, instead of the shaft and the headers on my 65, with a 302, and T5.  

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waynep712222
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Posts: 223
Joined: 04/13
Posted: 06/08/13 01:47 PM

idj.. nice Zbar pictures... dont' forget that you have to maintain.. the height from center to keep the push ratio the same..

i was looking in the motor mount catalog sitting on top of my monitor... where is handy...

M2286 is the proper mounts for some motors.
!By9gstwb2k~$(Kgrhqeoki8e)Bekgk2cbmt5oe)))Q~~ 35



M2257 is the proper mounts for other motors..

they seem to be used interchangeably... but they seem to have perhaps a half inch perhaps more in difference in engine installed height...

i don't have a pair to actually measure..

is the stud on the carb very long???? can it be shortened.. a shorter element or a drop base air filter be used...

i know this is a customers car..

there are different locations for the openings in fan shrouds..

and... is the Zbar tube LEVEL... or is it at an angle????  

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idrivejunk
New User
Posts: 38
Joined: 11/10
Posted: 06/08/13 09:38 PM

packman, that also blipped on my idea radar once. Might not be a bad solution. Thanks for sharing your plan, I agree just making my own might be less trouble.

Wayne- the bar looked really level to me but I can't quantify that any further at the moment. I did make a template of sorts, so I can preserve the original rod hole position no matter what. I'll make it square and strong.

The engine mounts that are in the car fit easily.

I recieved replacement mounts (Anchor) but they wouldn't even go onto the frame, they were made so poorly. I concluded that the metal halves were positioned wrong when the rubber was poured in the mold. The old ones were good just dirty so they were cleaned and re-used. The air cleaner is short, I think if we go with a regular nut rather than a wing nut it will clear. Can't try the hood on yet, but if it does hit, at least the outside is completely covered by the scoop.

I'm going to research mount numbers and see what I come up with. I need basic Ford training, lol. Gotta check out the differences between 302s and 351s. Unfortunately if I can make the engine sit lower that will worsen the clutch interference. Something has to change. Its my first venture on a unibody with a stick, that area is really cramped and I can see why modifications might often be necessary. Now I have more ideas, thanks!

Heres the car. You can see the air cleaner isn't very tall. The intake on the other hand ... might be

IMG 3237 Zps4cc04db1  
idrivejunk

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waynep712222
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Posts: 223
Joined: 04/13
Posted: 06/09/13 04:17 AM

idj    just looking at the picture of the mustang project you are working on makes me want one even more.. what a beautiful car thats going to be..  

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54packman
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Posts: 343
Joined: 11/09
Posted: 06/09/13 09:36 AM

I just spent 2 days putting a set of headers on a porsche 914 4cyl, and ran into similar problems getting everything to fit, making custom muffler hanger to install a 2 1/4 magnaflow muffler, then the gear shift rod hits the headers, so that had to be heated and reshaped, the clutch cable had to be modified, and re routed to clear the headers on the other side so it wouldnt get melted.  

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idrivejunk
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Posts: 38
Joined: 11/10
Posted: 06/10/13 05:43 PM

That sounds like a pain, at least it was little bitty parts, right? Sounds like a lot of work. I just spent a whole day on my deal.

Wayne, thanks man. I used to ride in my friend's big brother's red Mach1 as a kid and I agree theres no other car like it. The back window is pretty much a rifle slot from the inside looking out, I just remember you can't see much from the back seat.

I cut the bar all up, five cuts I think. One more and I think I'm done. Fine tuning the angle on the lower end. After I modified the top end, I had to go nuts on the bottom end, too. Only then was I able to install the pedal rod and clutch fork pushrod and see where the travel zone actually is. The headers are Heddmans, by the way.

Heres about what it looked like at the end of the day. The upper pushrod hole is in it's original position (before bend), the bottom end had to move up slightly and way closer to the frame rail. Should be good to go now, I might post a pic of once its finished and working right. Thanks for the help, guys.

IMG 3311 Zps32f5eccc  
idrivejunk

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waynep712222
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Posts: 223
Joined: 04/13
Posted: 06/10/13 10:03 PM

a 914 funny...

just after the LA RIOTS.. one of my brothers friends needed his porsche 914 ECU resoldered to attempt to rid it of issues...

he was told to leave it on the front porch of the green house on the south west corner of such and such in hollywood.  my brother did not realize this guy could get south east corner mixed up... when my brother came home.. the lady in the house on the south east corner was in his living room calling the bomb squad..  somebody had left a bomb on her front porch..  a car parked in her driveway had also been torched the week before... as my brother continued past she was describing the bomb on the phone.. yes.. its an aluminum box.. about 9 inches by 9 inches.. perhaps an inch and a half thick. and it must be a german bomber.. as it has the words BOSCH printed on it..  the LAPD had a great laugh on that one..  hope you did also...  

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idrivejunk
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Posts: 38
Joined: 11/10
Posted: 06/11/13 07:00 PM

Those poor bomb squad guys, they sure get some wacko false alarms. That one was a hoot! Poor taxpayers too.

This clutch linkage is gonna drive me wacko. Painted and assembled my final revision and went on to connect the steering. Ugh- when the pedal is up, the rag joint slightly rubs the underside of the bar. Nuts.

But ... the rag joint turns out to be torn and missing the metal covers over the bolt holes. It had been operating under tension that was pulling apart, due to the steering column.

Because the collapsible section of the column likes to stick really good in the position where it has ridden all it's life, it prevents proper positioning of the rag joint end of the shaft and pulls on the rubber when tightened. The studs on the joint barely engage the slots on the column.

If I can free this up and replace the rag joint, I may not have an issue. It will fit close, but I want to get it running before making further efforts.  

So I'm not out of the woods yet and now I need a part before I can proceed. At least I do have clearance at the header now, on both ends. Thats what this thread was about.  
idrivejunk

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54packman
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Posts: 343
Joined: 11/09
Posted: 06/14/13 08:46 AM

most of the time the 914s dont have a problem with the computer, we find most of the time its been in the relay board, intermettent problems with the fuel pump or no starts, this is on the 70's cars.  

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